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Allison 1000?

Wow...pretty specific.  Thanks  (y)

The specifics you mention (220/230 @ 0.050", 0.575" lift ) are a little different from the link you sent.  Do I customize the cam they list to reflect what your figures are, or is "as close as it gets"...as close as it gets?

Also, I am running short tube headers, and highly customized exhaust.  A true dual setup all the way from the headers to the side pipes...no crossover or H pipe or anything.  I am running racing cats and cherry bomb glasspacks.

I often don't get into 6th gear...kinda like an overdrive, and the mountain highways don't offer much for hi-speed WOT running.  On the rare occasion I make it to the interstate to run 70 MPH...6th really helps...about 2000 RPM @ 72 MPH...something like that, which is exactly how I was wanting it.  That low first gear makes for a great stump puller.  So I really look at it more like a 4 speed with ultra low and OD.

Curious...I've attained all of my automotive knowledge from tinkering as a teenager and learning on tech boards and here as an adult and still tinker and ask questions...never afraid to try it myself kinda guy.  What's your automotive background?  How do you go about figuring what cam specs for a specific engine?  As I said before, I don't read/understand cams...but I'd love to know how to.  I understand that the more time a valve is open, the more flow...but all the numbers involved with camming...mind-boggling...for now.
 
A couple of notes here...

1)  I seemed to have  :jacked: this post...sorry.
2)  Can you really  :jacked:  a 5 year old post that has been recently revived?  If so...SORRY.


 
Doward,

  Can the cam be swapped without disassembling much of the engine?  I know I can take to front grill and all that junk off the front of the truck...radiator, etc, but as far as the configuration of the LQ9 and heads, etc....do I need to remove the engine and tear it down?  I know with some that's really the only way, but others can be done with the engine in the vehicle.
 
I'm an engineer by trade, combined with years of experience :)

I'm actually an electrical engineer / computer programmer, but hey - I love to know how and why things work the way they do.  Very much a labor of love ;)

That said, the cam I linked you is a 222/232 @ 0.050", .561/586" lift cam.  It's close enough to the specs I laid out.  

How do I match up a cam to a particular setup?  Voodoo, of course ;)  It IS a bit of an art.  It's a matter of being able to visualize the flow of air at a certain RPM, for a certain load, and factoring how a particular sized cam should work in a particular sized engine.  Hell, you want to get real fancy, we can calculate your intake harmonics @ 2500 rpm, and customize your intake to maximize that cam.  Good return on investment?  I think you've invested enough, considering what you originally wanted and are asking for are really nothing special at all (sorry)

Check your RPMs at 70mph again... with a 305/50/20 tire, you should be closer to 1800 rpm than 2000 rpm.  If you're running almost 2000 rpm, I'd expect to see you running 3.73s, not 3.42s.

BTW, you really should be running long tubes with an H pipe... why aren't you?  I'd like to see a set of 1.75" primaries down to dual 3" pipes.
 
I went with the short tube headers for a couple reasons.  One, being that short tubes are supposed to be better for torque as apposed to using long tubes for horse power.  The other reason was because I was trying to utilize as much of what I already had as possible.  Those polished stainless steel side pipes cost me a pretty penny.  Since I ditched the turbos, I reconfigured the exhaust around the side pipes.  Sure, ideally I'd like to have custom long tubes to collectors, then into side pipes.  I love the old school look of 4 pipes twisted into a collector, sticking out behind the front wheels.  Hopefully, I can do that in the future.  But for now, I need to spend the money getting this expensive motor to run like it should. Based on all the money that has gone into it, I should outrun a Camping World or Craftsman Truck Series truck!...and pull a camper home after the race!

I'll have to recheck my RPM's.  I might be remembering wrong about 70MPH @ 2000RPM.

So, what about swapping the cam with the motor still in the truck?  Is it doable?
 
Yep, sorry, I missed that question completely!  You can do a cam swap on most any LSx based engine in the vehicle.  Done it a couple times already ;)

You're misinformed on the Long Tubes vs Short Tubes.  The longer primaries produce better low end torque, the shorter primaries are tuned for higher end power.

Think of it this way - you're looking to have a reflected exhaust wave that is bounced back from the exhaust valve JUST as the valve is opening, so that you create a scavenging effect.  Now, at lower RPM, you have a lot of time to 'waste' before that wave needs to come back, hence you need a longer travel path for the wave to take up that time.

At higher rpm, you have a lot more piston speed, faster moving exhaust pulses, so you need a shorter path for them to get back to the exhaust valve right the hell now.

While I'm on that topic, forget tq vs hp.  Torque is what matters.  Horsepower is derived from torque!  HP = TQ/5252.  Notice how ALL dyno curves cross @ 5252 (unless the engine doesn't spin that high, of course!)

High horsepower is just high torque at high rpm.

If you are definitely keeping the shorties, then I'd recommend tightening up the intake duration vs exhaust duration (we're not able to capitalize on the long tubes) - take a look at this cam: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SLE-51016/

224/228 @ 0.050", 0.591"/0.600" lift.  Heh, SLP even recommends this for their ZL402 'for unbeatable towing power'.

I'd say SLP knows what they're doing, then.  (y)
 
I'm not totally against rearranging the exhaust again...just putting it off.  Like I said, the long tubes and collectors showing behind the front wheel is what I was after, but it didn't work out with the twin turbo application.  I would rather build the thing to run on all motor if possible.  Forced induction gets pretty expensive...I know...been there, done that.  I could always add a supercharger down the road and not have to redo the exhaust to suit it.  Maybe I should work on the cam and exhaust setup and see what happens from there.  So, the first cam you mentioned (222/232 @ 0.050", .561/586" lift ) and long tubes/collectors is the direction I should be taking...

Thanks for the heads up on swapping the cam with the motor in...that would have sucked to remove the motor and find out later it wasn't necessary!

What have you decided on your transmission?  I went with the ZF because I love driving manual transmission vehicles...I like having that control.  There are times that I wished I went with the Allison, but it is more expensive...although tuning would have been easier.  I also get backlash sometimes if the vehicle speed and engine RPM aren't matched while I'm coasting.  The ZF is finicky.  If ease of use is what you're after, Allison, all the way.  If total control is what you're after, ZF.
 
Unless I figure out a control scheme for a 6l80, I'll be going ZF.  The Allison 1000 evidently is not designed to handle the speeds a 6.0L gasser would spin at.  Maximum Allison 1000 input rpm is rated @ 5000rpm.  I'd want to be able to floor it and run 6000-6500 without issue. Now, if I wanted to drop a DMAX into the 1500 Avy....

It's not something I'm doing immediately - I tend to research things exhaustively before pulling the trigger ;)

I don't want you to think you HAVE the change the exhaust and all immediately - either setup will do very well for you, it's simply a matter of optimization (maybe 5% difference).  The shorties + cam 2 would tow absolutely fine, but the 1st setup would be optimized specifically for towing.
 
So, the short headers and cam 2 are fine; later go long tubes and keep cam 2 for better overall performance than cam 1 and long tubes...is that right?  I don't want to have to change cams more than once.  If I go with cam 2 now and leave the shorties for now...I'll be fine.  In the future, replace the exhaust with long tubes, collectors and side pipes with a crossover pipe (is an H pipe fine?), and eventually go with a twin screw SC to top things off (and max it out).  I guess this would be the optimum setup...aside from adding nitrous at some point, which I wouldn't likely do (just not my thing).  Am I getting this right?

I hadn't heard that the Allison's max RPM input was 5000.  I too like to get my foot in it...good thing I went with the ZF!  Do you know of any max RPM on the ZF?  As far as a control unit...the PCM can control the Allison through reprogramming, as it is necessary with the ZF as well.  Both transmissions are just about bullet proof.  I just like the ability to control my shift RPM to suit my driving style.  I always look for a manual trans when I'm looking into sports cars and hot rods.  I never saw the benefit to an auto trans in a Corvette or Chevelle or GTO...plus there is the maintenance factor involved with an auto trans.  Sure, you have the clutch with a manual, but you can further optimize performance with a performance clutch matched to your intended use and driving style.  Once again, the control factor.  Even for towing.  A lot of people think I'm crazy for wanting a manual trans for towing, but I know how to use one.  It's my weapon of choice  >:D
 
Believe me, I'm 100% in agreement as for control.  Manual > auto any day in my book.

Wife wants to be able to drive the Avy, too, so I've got to consider that, as well.

Since you've already got the shorties, I'd keep the shorties, go with Cam #2, and don't worry about going long tubes.  Yes, I would have recommended long tubes from the get-go, but why do all that work twice, for little gain at this point?

My only  beef was wanting the 0.67 OD of the 6l80, but then again, once I get the Avy on 35s, with 3.42 gearing, I'll be able to take advantage of the super low 1st and 2nd of the ZF, combined with the 0.72 OD of 6th.

Then again, if I go with the ZF instead of the 6l80, I already have the transmission I'd want if I ever DMAX the Avy ;)

Leave your shorties, go with cam #2, sort out the wideband issues, and get some logs - I'd be happy to help tuning :)
 
Cool.  I can save some time and a couple grand now, and go with the exhaust change at a later date...just for the cool-factor.  Thanks.  :yourock:

My wife can drive the ZF, but she doesn't like to...she'd only do it in an emergency (which is a good thing, because you know women drivers...haha).  If you give her a little seat time, I'm sure she'll get a handle on the ZF.

You're in the same boat with tranny decisions as I have been about the cam/exhaust issues.  It's really a matter of preference, but there are slight benefits to either.  It's all about your main goal in the end.  For me (sounds like for you as well), the ease of someone else being able to drive the Av comfortably lost out over the cool "dude...you got a stick in that thing".  Remember when dodge brought back the Hemi?  All the comercials about "yeah...it's got a hemi!"...I feel the same about my ZF, but most people don't consider transmissions and even fewer know what a ZF is.  I didn't know until I was researching here on CAFCNA and LordAries had his thing going at the time.  It's always nice having someone else pave the way and have real life input on the subject...be it transmissions or cams or wheels or paint.

So...After tax returns are done, I'll buy that cam.  Of coarse I'll be hitting you up for advice on how to go about swapping it.  Unless you're up for a road trip and want to get your hands dirty.  Hey, maybe you'll have that ZF and need to use my HPTuners and we can work together on these things...make a weekend out of it.  I have a fairly large shop (like 30' x 40' or something like that) and lots of extra room in the house for guests.
 
Maybe if you've got a lift ;)

I'm always down with road trips, it's up to the wife though, especially with our first child now 7 weeks old LOL

She (thankfully) knows how to drive stick, but yes, having her drive the truck scares me.  Wish I had the dough, I'd love to put her in a Z66 2wd, and get a 2500 for myself to do a DMax / ZF swap into.

Ah, to dream.  Especially with this economy - glad to have a steady job, even if the pay is crap!
 
I know what you mean.  We've had our fair share of struggling through, strapped for cash.  I wish I had a lift.  I've actually been looking into them a bit.  They're not that expensive...$3-4k.  The biggest problem is you need a fork lift to move them into position and to install them.  I suppose I could rent a fork lift, but I'd really need someone to help set it up.  Just having another pair of hands & eyes makes a big difference. My wife helps me out with most things...she's a real trooper.  I just never asked her to help out with anything to do with the cars.. not sure why.  She used to help her dad...and he was difficult to work with!  I have a couple buddies I work with, but it's extremely difficult to get together, as we are a 24/7 office and the way the job goes, it's hard to get together.  We could probably work it out, but I don't know if I want to install a lift here, as I'm always thinking of moving.  I love it here, but it's way too much house and that leaves us strapped for cash all the time.  Maintenance is a nightmare, too.  Expensive and time consuming. 

Well, I'll definitely be looking for advice from you when I get the cam. 
 
Definitely - hopefully after February I can start to get things together for my own project.

I want a capable, 20mpg highway hauler, and for some damn reason I'm making it more difficult on myself by staying with a gasser!
 
About half way through my Avalanche build, I decided that an all electric truck would be a better way to go...but I had already spent a butt load of money and didn't want to start over.  I was going to replace the engine with a large DC motor that mounted in a similar manner under the hood...perhaps even use the transmission, but had to do some more research on that.  The ZF has a PTO output, and it could be used to run a generator or just about anything.  If I didn't use a transmission, I would put a generator on it still for supplemental power and to help recharge the batteries while operating to help increase the range.  The batteries would have been mounted in place of the gas tank and exhaust, leaving the bed for normal use without obstruction.  Other than the motor and possibly the transmission and a generator, the drive line would remain pretty stock.  DC motors produce a phenomenal amount of torque.  Think about it...if it can move a freight train, why not an Avalanche?  I saw an episode of "PassTimes" where an electric dragster had the fastest times of the day!  Honestly...if I had it to do all over again, that's how I'd go.

Check this link...

http://www.nedra.com/

 
I've got an '89 Accord that's my guinea pig for electric conversion.

I hadn't considered converting the Avy to Electric, though... going to have to ponder that one ;)
 
It seems fairly easy to swap the cam.  I was originally worried I would have to remove it from the truck and tear it down, but evidently NOT the case.  Actually looking forward to it.  This will be my first cam swap.  As a teenager, I used to help guys replace entire engine/trans combos, and I have done a little top end work.  One day I hope to actually build the entire thing...order a block, rotating assembly, heads, etc.  You'd think that someone that is into the "total control" aspect (hence, manual trans), would insist on building his own engine every time.  The problem is, there are only so many hours of available time in one's life, and you have to choose what to do with those hours.  My choices are changing all the time. 

I found some good info on swapping the cam, so I don't really see a problem doing it myself.  I've even come across some tips that will save me the headache of the valves being in the way...

"okay, go to your local hard ware store and buy, 2 3/16th dowl rods, before pulling the stock cam, measure the rods from the back of your block and leave about 3-4 inches over the front of the block, cut them at that length and put em in the holes, it looks like a viewing slot, youll know what im talking about when you see it, anyways make sure the rods hit the back of the block. This will hold the lifters up, then just pull the cam, insert new cam, remove rods "...I got that off of the LS1 Trucks Tech Boards.

this sight ...  http://www.ls1howto.com/index.php?article=23  ... has some good info too.
 
Heh, yep.  Not much at all to doing a cam swap on an LS engine.

Currently thinking a square engine, 4" bore, 4" stroke, 6500rpm max, optimize the 1600-4500rpm range for my setup.

The stroker crank may wait, though, as it appears NOBODY has made a standard nodular iron cast freaking LS crank yet.
 
Still forged.  I'm not wanting to throw $1700 at a forged rotating assembly - don't need it, and I'd prefer stock hyperuetectic pistons vs the extra clearance needed with forged!
 
Doward- the 6L90 will not go with your engine. There is a thread in 2500 section I did- see the information. I would love to have a 6 speed with my big block.

Avalon
 
What a great discussion! Makes me want to get out my wrenches and engine stands. Except that gas prices are expected to top $4/g this year :eek:

That pisses me off, but I don't want to digress into politics...but the electric conversion is very interesting. In my profession I work with lots of electric propulsion. (train control systems)

BTW Doward, we are hiring EE's.

Best of luck to y'all, and thanks for sharing the conversation.
 
Heh, where you located?  Doing systems architect / database programming at the moment...

And yes, I've heard gas prices are supposed to go crazy this summer.  Hence the work I'm doing on the Avy.
 
Goodwrench/02 said:
What a great discussion! Makes me want to get out my wrenches and engine stands. Except that gas prices are expected to top $4/g this year :eek:

That pisses me off, but I don't want to digress into politics...but the electric conversion is very interesting. In my profession I work with lots of electric propulsion. (train control systems)

BTW Doward, we are hiring EE's.  

Best of luck to y'all, and thanks for sharing the conversation.
Click to expand...

You don't work for GE do you?   :beating:
 
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