Wester's Pcm Tuning

jgwatsonjg · Jul 20, 2003

In the ever constant pursuit of performance IE Programmers/Superchargers

We all know the PCM needs rewritten. What if there is somebody that offers a great Warrenty/Guarantee of Performance, and Should you ever get a Supercharger will Reburn Your PCM for you.

Wester's PCM

Warranty Promise

On The SilveradoSS board a guy with a Wester's PCM'd SS raced a Stock SS and had him by a Truck length at the end of the Race.

Mine Should(Read Should) be here within 10 Days. It has to Cross the Border and Our Canadian Members can attest to the pain of getting stuff across the border.

Agent M.

pktwatch · Jul 20, 2003

Whats the difference in this and the HTTP III?

Butch

gandolphxx · Jul 20, 2003

Z66 BUTCH said:
Whats the difference in this and the HTTP III?

Butch

The Westers product is a completely re-programmed PCM that removes torque management and provides some other tuning enhancements.

rreidAV03 · Jul 20, 2003

Interesting

There is a company here in the US that does PCM re-programming called ASE Chips (http://www.asechips.com/) it looks like it adds 22 HP and 23lbs/FT of torque for $319.
I used them awhile back to reflash the PCM for my Jeep GC Limited.

11H · Jul 21, 2003

There's also Z Industries (Ron Zimmer) ... He's a GM LT4/LT1/LS1/LS6 guru ... He did a couple LT1 PCM's back here a few years ago and on a slightly modded 1996 SS Camaro it did wonders... I know Ron Zimmer to be one of the best tuners of all time in the Turbo Buicks too ...

If I were to send any of my PCM work to "ANYONE" it would be him without a doubt...

Z-Industries (Ron Zimmer)
18032-C Lemon Dr.
Yorba Linda, CA 92886
(714)779-6680
ron@z-industries.com

That's what I have ... Hope it's current !

Ahhh... Found it... Here's a link where he did some work on a 'vette ... *** This article has some good info on '02 and up PCM's ...

http://www.corvetteforum.com/reviews/viewsubtopic.php?SubTopicID=497&TopicID=20

11H

jgwatsonjg · Jul 26, 2003

Ok Guys The Results are in on a N/A 5.3L av and they are Terrific!!!! MUCH BETTER Throttle Response, Shifting, and When I Step on the Go Peddle, We GO!!!!!!!!!!!

Wester's Is For Real!

Agent M.

11H · Jul 26, 2003

Agent Maxwell said:
Ok Guys The Results are in on a N/A 5.3L av and they are Terrific!!!! MUCH BETTER Throttle Response, Shifting, and When I Step on the Go Peddle, We GO!!!!!!!!!!!

Wester's Is For Real!

Agent M.

AM,,,

Have you hooked up to the DLC to see if you have any real-time Knock Retard under varied load/throttle ? ... (That's the trick to tune a NA 5.3 for summer and make HP at the same time...No KR ...)

11H

jgwatsonjg · Jul 26, 2003

I only got it installed yesterday, I Plan on hooking up my Predator Tomorrow, And having a Copilot read the KR. (Been a long weekend)

But There is a Definite Improvement, I was more concerned with the Throttle Response than Anything Else.

Agent M.

NightOwl · Jul 28, 2003

Any real time monitoring results yet?

NightOwl · Jul 28, 2003

Not to say this guy is not for real, but I am curious how this guy went from no one ever heard of, to his name being praised on every forum on the net. I sometimes wonder about "staged" promotion, if you know what I mean. Plus, $400-500 is kind of high for a service that includes no product. A tune of this nature when someone has to return their PCM as a core would be worth to me in the $100-200 range! I give them a low mileage PCM out of a 2002 and I may get a high mileage PCM out of a 1999? I know it is said he tests each unit before shipping, but the test proceedures to test a PCM right would require a high investment in equipment. I also know that he lifetime warranties the PCM, but will he still be there in 3-4 years? Who knows! Also, so far I have been only able to find the classic Seat of the pants reviews of his service. The throttle body spacer had rave reviews in this regard and we know what they do for performance on the 5.3 now! Don't we? Even if his tuning is the best, he still is getting rich at $400-500 a pop.

gandolphxx · Jul 29, 2003

NightOwl said:
Not to say this guy is not for real, but I am curious how this guy went from no one ever heard of, to his name being praised on every forum on the net. I sometimes wonder about "staged" promotion, if you know what I mean. Plus, $400-500 is kind of high for a service that includes no product. A tune of this nature when someone has to return their PCM as a core would be worth to me in the $100-200 range! I give them a low mileage PCM out of a 2002 and I may get a high mileage PCM out of a 1999? I know it is said he tests each unit before shipping, but the test proceedures to test a PCM right would require a high investment in equipment. I also know that he lifetime warranties the PCM, but will he still be there in 3-4 years? Who knows! Also, so far I have been only able to find the classic Seat of the pants reviews of his service. The throttle body spacer had rave reviews in this regard and we know what they do for performance on the 5.3 now! Don't we? Even if his tuning is the best, he still is getting rich at $400-500 a pop.

He is not staging results all over the forums, they are from satisfied customers - folks that have watched the market and know value in a product, and got good results.

Many of the "tuners" charge more for dubious results. The forums are full of those results. Part of the popularity is an increased awareness of the TQM problem and also GM's aggressive shutdown of moonlighting employees burning PCM's as a sideline.

If you want to do it yourself [and know how] you can invest in LS1edit for about $500 and go at it.

In any event $500 is the going rate and is as justified as $38,000 for an Avalanche.

My $.02

11H · Jul 29, 2003

gandolphxx said:
NightOwl said:

Not to say this guy is not for real, but I am curious how this guy went from no one ever heard of, to his name being praised on every forum on the net. I sometimes wonder about "staged" promotion, if you know what I mean. Plus, $400-500 is kind of high for a service that includes no product. A tune of this nature when someone has to return their PCM as a core would be worth to me in the $100-200 range! I give them a low mileage PCM out of a 2002 and I may get a high mileage PCM out of a 1999? I know it is said he tests each unit before shipping, but the test proceedures to test a PCM right would require a high investment in equipment. I also know that he lifetime warranties the PCM, but will he still be there in 3-4 years? Who knows! Also, so far I have been only able to find the classic Seat of the pants reviews of his service. The throttle body spacer had rave reviews in this regard and we know what they do for performance on the 5.3 now! Don't we? Even if his tuning is the best, he still is getting rich at $400-500 a pop.

Click to expand...

He is not staging results all over the forums, they are from satisfied customers - folks that have watched the market and know value in a product, and got good results.

Many of the "tuners" charge more for dubious results. The forums are full of those results. Part of the popularity is an increased awareness of the TQM problem and also GM's aggressive shutdown of moonlighting employees burning PCM's as a sideline.

If you want to do it yourself [and know how] you can invest in LS1edit for about $500 and go at it.

In any event $500 is the going rate and is as justified as $38,000 for an Avalanche.

My $.02

I know of a guy who spent $3,xxx on a custom tune with a blower and a stroker motor... (He was the guinee pig although) ...

IMO, if you can give an accurate print of what your PCM is doing now, and what your mods are, and the tuner can return that pcm with substantial gains without the truck on a dyno, and you not experience KR out of bounds, then $500 is not a bad deal ... Plus the core thing is probably there so he can turn his product faster to the customer...

My idea of custom tuning is on the dyno, LS1Edit and Diagnostic software in the presence of a lap top and a good tuner ... That is about $250 - $350 an hour around here ... And some serious dyno spinning ... Now if I could get somwhere's between this custom tuning and a Hypertech for $500 and a guarantee, that wouldn't be too bad ...

Now if I could only find a second oem pcm to do this with for a good price ... Ughh

11H

kwinsor · Jul 29, 2003

but I am curious how this guy went from no one ever heard of, to his name being praised on every forum on the net.

Personal service!

Maybe that's a little too simple but he's one of the few people I've encountered in this business that takes the time to listen. He also delivers on his promise.

My first tune wasn't producing a lot of power. After talking to him about it he had ANOTHER PCM on the way without waiting for the first one to be returned. I didn't have to ask for this, it's the way he works.

If you buy LS1Edit you get on their user group. You'll see a lot of posts from Lyndon on the users board. He's in the business and sharing his knowledge as well.

Did they also modify the tow/haul ass mode? I tend to use that alot with my large tires.

Ask Wester's to switch the tow/haul program so that the truck always starts out in tow/haul and the normal setting comes on when you push the button. I've got mine set up that way, I love it!

Even if his tuning is the best, he still is getting rich at $400-500 a pop.

The unlimited version of LS1Edit for years 97-03 cost $18,000 plus $500 a year for updates. I don't know how much it costs for GM's harware/software that allows a tuner to flash the OEM code. Need this to be able to exchange PCMs.

You can spend $3-400 for a canned, fits all, program or $500 and get exactly what you want. Try talking to Hypertech when things don't go exactly right. You'll find out real quick "it must have been you that screwed it up".

kw

NightOwl · Jul 29, 2003

Would not a reprogrammed PCM be a "canned program" since your specific vehicle was never tuned on a dyno?

Even though you may have some options such as starting in tow/haul, the tuning portion would still be a canned program. Just a different canned program than Predator's or Hypertech's. Has anyone ever asked James at RWTD if he could do the same (tow/haul) in a custom program?

I always question the latest and greatest mods on this forum and others. Why? Because I have watched people jump on the band wagon and spend their cold hard cash and within months the real results roll in and the mod disappears from sight. Examples: K&N, UPD, Shorty Headers, Direct Hits....

I am sure that Websters is a good tuner. But I do believe that there is only so much performance to be squeezed out of these PCMs. Maybe $400-500 is the going market price for tuning without a dyno run. But as I said "to me" this is not a fair price for a service, with no product, and a canned program without a dyno run. If the market price went to $1000 for this service, would that make the service worth $1000? Heck a $38,000 vehicle deserves a $1000 canned tune...Right

gandolphxx · Jul 29, 2003

You spend 300+ on a HPP3 that leaves TQM in place but argue that a PCM rewrite at 500 is too much - interesting. I have a PCM without TQM and I can assure you it makes a huge difference at the track.

As to canned, I suggest you check out th process, many questions to answer and emails that get exchanged before it is done.

As to new, heck no, folks have been reprogramming PCM's from the moment they came out - iy is the "off the shelf" canned handhelds that are new.

NightOwl · Jul 29, 2003

Predator removes TQM, custom tunes are free if purchased from RWTD and others and you still have control of some variables you would not with a PCM reprogram for track or dyno tuning. In addition with the Predator you have live data, code scanning and code clearing. All at a price equal to or less than Websters. Predator's tuning is NOT just WOT like Hypertech's and tuning is created on a dyno also.

I would just have to be convinced that Websters tuning would produce some real gains above a Predator.I am not sure that there is that much more Performance to be gained on a bolt on vehicle on 87 Octane gas as Websters tunes his.
You can only add so much timing at any RPM without getting KR. I do feel from reading posts that Websters may have a slight advantage in throttle response, but that is hard to measure!

As for the Predator, I think each revision will just get better in features and work out the bugs. I even heard they MAY add a feature to adjust gear kick downs. If that was so, wouldn't it be nice to set those to your own taste?

11H · Jul 30, 2003

As for the Predator, I think each revision will just get better in features and work out the bugs. I even heard they MAY add a feature to adjust gear kick downs. If that was so, wouldn't it be nice to set those to your own taste?

I sure hope they do... And soon... The Hypertech does this as part of the upshift increases ... (If you add +6mph to the 2-3 upshift, it kicks down from 3 to 2 in drive 6 mph higher... Or there abouts... I like that feature...) ...

11H

kwinsor · Jul 30, 2003

Hi Night Owl,

It's just a different approach that has value to some of us.

I can connect up EFIlive and download performance data for Lyndon to analyze and reprogram for specific results. There is a big difference between tuning for a dyno run and tuning for street performance. I had a dyno tune that was great from a dead stop but "on the street" throttle response was awful.

I now have a wide band O2 analyzer and LS1edit so I can tune it myself.

kw

TXAVy · Jul 30, 2003

11H said:
I sure hope they do... And soon... The Hypertech does this as part of the upshift increases ... (If you add +6mph to the 2-3 upshift, it kicks down from 3 to 2 in drive 6 mph higher... Or there abouts... I like that feature...) ...

11H

Probably unrelated, but it seems like the AV already shifts down a little too readily when in cruise control on the highway. With it set at about 72-73 or so, all it takes is a moderate hill and about 2mph drop in speed to cause it to shift. The surprising (and kind of irritating) part about it, is that I can hear it drop out of overdrive and start gaining speed, but it very quickly downshifts as well to get back up to the set speed. I guess perhaps the cruise controll is too sensative when it comes to getting back to the set speed. I wish it would wait a few more seconds out of overdrive before downshifting and it would work out fine.

kwinsor · Jul 30, 2003

Probably unrelated, but it seems like the AV already shifts down a little too readily when in cruise control on the highway.

Hi Txavy,

The avalanche has a separate shift table when in cruise control. At 75% throttle in fourth, the torque converter will unlock when speed drops to 72mph. At 75% throttle the transmission will downshift to third at 71mph.

This seems like a lot of throttle to maintain speed. I think cruise control is set up to quickly over-correct and back down as opposed to running the risk of losing engine/vehicle speed.

The next downshift point is 77mph at 81% throttle, TC unlock is still at 72mph. Maybe setting your cruise control to 75-76 would get you out ok the range where the down shift and TC unlock happen close together.

kw

11H · Jul 30, 2003

Redshift,,,

Hey I just noticed something about T/H on my last trip... In T/H the converter stays locked longer than in std ... I'm betting this is to reduce slippage of the TC Clutch / avoid heat production... I noiticed it at speed, not so much during accelerating ...

The std mode defenitely allows unlocking sooner under load... Can you confirm this? ... Seems like you jumped right into tuning !

Once I noticed it I was playing with it on the mountains ... Sure wish I had a T Temp gauge ... :8:

I guess T/H does do more than increase line pressure and hold shifts later...

TXAVy · Jul 30, 2003

Redshift said:
The avalanche has a separate shift table when in cruise control. At 75% throttle in fourth, the torque converter will unlock when speed drops to 72mph. At 75% throttle the transmission will downshift to third at 71mph.

This seems like a lot of throttle to maintain speed. I think cruise control is set up to quickly over-correct and back down as opposed to running the risk of losing engine/vehicle speed.

The next downshift point is 77mph at 81% throttle, TC unlock is still at 72mph. Maybe setting your cruise control to 75-76 would get you out ok the range where the down shift and TC unlock happen close together.

Thanks, that's EXACTLY what it feels like it's doing. Your estimate about the cruise control being set to quickly over-correct is what I felt as well and I was wondering if there was any way to adjust that.

Looks like part of the problem though is that I had been setting the cruise at just BARELY above that shift point at 71mph. I'll bump up my speeding habits up to 75 or so and see if that helps.

kwinsor · Jul 30, 2003

Hi 11H

I looks like the torque converter clutch does nothing in first. The parameters for second gear are maxed out, essentially disabling the feature. Third gear will lock up between 40 and 45 if the throttle position is less than 50%. If throttle position is over 50% the converter won't lock until speeds reach 75mph. Essentially it unlocks at 37 and 70 at the same throttle positions.

Fourth gear is strange, it locks and unlocks at 57mph all the way to 68% throttle and then locks and unlocks at 70mph from there on up.

In normal mode TC lock can happen in the high 20s to high 30s for 3rd and 4th, a much broader range.

Shift time is based on torque output but only differers between norm and perf. when the torque is below 100lb/ft. Above 100 all times are the same except for an overall reduction in shift time for 1st to 2nd shift in normal range. Not a lot of difference between the modes if you're hammerin' on it.

Shift pressure also varies with torque and there is a significant difference between norm and perf.

I have gotten into the tuning thing, it's interesting. I'm a little confused with what many are doing with fuel adjustment in closed loop operation. I can't see how any changes to closed loop fueling parameters won't get "learned out" eventually. I'm sure the changes show up on the dyno right after they're made but I'm betting they get learned out in a few hundred miles. There is a thread running through the LS1Edit board based on adjustments to power enrichment. I think that is where the real gains will be made.

kw

kwinsor · Jul 30, 2003

I was wondering if there was any way to adjust that.

I don't think there is. The cruise control doesn't have a way of knowing how steep the hill might get. It has to be prepared for the worst and back down if the worst doesn't happen. It can back down pretty quickly. If it were to act conservatively you'd have a situation where the vehicle speed drops and then has to recover. That would take a lot longer and annoy the guy behind you.

It's amazingly complex to automate what a human does intuatively.

With all that said, a tuner could move the problem area to a different speed range.

kw

11H · Jul 30, 2003

Hi 11H

I looks like the torque converter clutch does nothing in first. The parameters for second gear are maxed out, essentially disabling the feature. Third gear will lock up between 40 and 45 if the throttle position is less than 50%. If throttle position is over 50% the converter won't lock until speeds reach 75mph. Essentially it unlocks at 37 and 70 at the same throttle positions.

Fourth gear is strange, it locks and unlocks at 57mph all the way to 68% throttle and then locks and unlocks at 70mph from there on up.

In normal mode TC lock can happen in the high 20s to high 30s for 3rd and 4th, a much broader range.

Shift time is based on torque output but only differers between norm and perf. when the torque is below 100lb/ft. Above 100 all times are the same except for an overall reduction in shift time for 1st to 2nd shift in normal range. Not a lot of difference between the modes if you're hammerin' on it.

Shift pressure also varies with torque and there is a significant difference between norm and perf.

I have gotten into the tuning thing, it's interesting. I'm a little confused with what many are doing with fuel adjustment in closed loop operation. I can't see how any changes to closed loop fueling parameters won't get "learned out" eventually. I'm sure the changes show up on the dyno right after they're made but I'm betting they get learned out in a few hundred miles. There is a thread running through the LS1Edit board based on adjustments to power enrichment. I think that is where the real gains will be made.

kw

That explains it (well indeed kw) ... I was trying to explain it to my wife and she was not responding... LOL ... She doesn't usually anyways ...

I had this dilema on some hills I was pulling out of Salt River canyon to Show Low ... I had the choice of running TH and risking a full downshift from 4th or running in STD and applying just enough throttle to unlock the TC in 4th ... Unlocking the TC would give me about 500 or 600 RPM of an increase (higher in the power curve), but I was afraid of making more heat in the tranny if I did it too long...

If the truck could pull the medium hills in TH in 4th with the TC locked that was optimum... But is she lugged and was about to shift, I would turn off TH and the TC would unlock ...

I also noticed in std, that lock-up seems to happen in 2 stages... The second being full lock...

I wish I had a Trans Temp gauge to see what worked out to be better... Running in TH and allowing a full downshift to 3rd or Running in std and just unlocking in 4th...

11H